Greenbelt Knoll

This is the transcript of an interview for a film about Greenbelt Knoll, an integrated housing development in Philadelphia. The recording on October 25, 2008 was for a film in the Precious Places series.

Interviewer: What is your name and how do you spell it?
Patrick: My name is Patrick D. Hazard and there’s only one "z" in Hazard.
Interviewer: How would you describe Longford Street?
Patrick: I would describe it as a sylvan retreat.
Interviewer: Why did you move here?
Patrick: I moved here because my wife couldn’t stand Levittown.
Interviewer: What did people on the street do together?
Patrick: Complain. And uh there was, we used to have a pool that people would go swim in, but in general we went our own ways; there was not a great deal of socializing.
Interviewer: What was the pool all about?
Patrick: The pool was all about water and cool but it didn’t work too well you see and basically they were afraid of excessive insurance so they shut it down. Ah but, but the most interesting thing that ever append to me happened at the pool. I was at the Annenberg School which I helped found and uh Leon Sullivan, the lion from Zion, one of our most famous residents said, “Pat, I don’t believe that Annenberg is interested in better communication. The black clergy has had a boycott on Tasty Cakes for 6 months you don’t hire us we don’t eat Tasty Cake and there hasn’t been a word in the newspaper about it.” That was Saturday. Monday bright and early I’m at the Inquirer building, I was frisked for weapons. Never happened to me before or again. Went to his 13th area (?) and there on his desk, Annenberg’s desk, I was sole of my life was to honor the memory of my father who was a thug in the circulation wars in Chicago that’s why they bought the Inquirer to get rid of that reputation, eh. He ended up in the pokey for income tax evasion. “I will sold of my life as to honor the memory of my father,” indeed. I said Walter you’re suppressing the truth, that’s not what our Annenberg School is about. He couldn’t believe that a 30 year old un-tenured assistant professor could come to him and tell him that he was committing felonies. He called in his lawyer who was a jerk, he called in his executive editor, E. Z. Demitman and Demitman said “We hired a colored boy last summer but he didn’t cut the mustard.” I said, “What the heck does that have to do with suppressing the truth.” And so that was the effective end of my Annenberg tenure. But that was at the pool. Maybe the most important thing that happened at the pool.
Interviewer: Did living on Longford Street change your life in any way?
Patrick: Well, uh, sure. Uh, I uh, it changed my life in many little ways. I mean, Robert Nix was the first black congressman elected in Philadelphia and he used to let me come down and hang out in Washington in his apartment and I got a better understanding of how politics really worked, you know. Uh, and of course my favorite man here was Roosevelt Barlow. He was the first black captain of a fire department and Roosevelt was just a sweet man. We talked to each other directly. Maybe one of the few people I’ve had that kind of relationship with.
Interviewer: Do you think the experience of living on Longford Street was different for blacks and whites?
Patrick: Of course. It was different, the blacks still were edgy. As they might be. And uh not always successful. One of the most popular guys, Jimmy Rogers, you know where the park is now, his house went to pieces. He was a sweet man, and yet he didn’t come through that’s why there’s a park there now because he blew it. But um I think it was harder for the blacks than the whites. If you wanna know the truth the whites sound a little bit superior that they were showing that they didn’t have any prejudice but of course they did it just wasn’t ugly like the prejudices outside it happened to be more arrogant, you know. “I’m a better man than that guy out there that hates blacks look at me.”
Interviewer: Was there conflict?
Patrick: Well of course. For example Roosevelt Barlow hated Milgram’s guts. We had more arguments over Morris Milgram but Roosevelt always felt he was getting screwed that he wasn’t getting a fair deal from Morris. I think Morris was pretty straight but everybody can feel put upon you know. That’s the only the time I sensed any real antipathy although there were a lot of little feuds. This was not utopia.
Interviewer: Do you believe that this developments concept was successful in its mission?
Patrick: Absolutely. This concept of intelligent people of all races and creeds living together. No question. Complete success on that.
Interviewer: Does Longford Street have lessons for us today?
Patrick: Well uh, the lesson is that we’re never going to be perfect and we’re always going to be trying to find a way to improve and I think that 8 Longford, I mean Longford Street shows that people with good hearts can live through any tough times. And were about to enter a very, very tough time so the kind of moral honesty that Longford Street represents is going to be needed by the whole country for the next 50 years.
Interviewer: Is there anything that you might like to share with us?
Patrick: You mean, uh, ice cream? No, I shared my story about Annenberg. That’s the biggest thing that I learned, you know. By the way, Leon Sullivan, if you know the history of South Africa, he was the man that formulated the Sullivan Principles which is you hire more blacks you pay them better and Nelson Mandela owes as much as to any one as Leon Sullivan who brought that vision to South Africa and that’s why they call it the Sullivan principles so you might say that Longford Street has a connection with the liberation of South Africa.
Cut/Stop
Interviewer: Have you done documentaries?
Patrick: Yes I’m the world’s greatest failed documentary maker. I did one on the New York World’s Fair of 1964 in which you can see all these kids as kids.
Interviewer: Do you have footage of that?
Patrick: I have the film. It’s called “Moses: Land of Promises. You remember Robert Moses the man that designed the fair. And so we’re talking “Moses: Land of Promises” as a kind of allusion to his Jewish heritage.
(Talking in background by people out of the shot)
Man seems disgruntled. Looks out window.
Patrick: What happened at Xavier University? Why is there a Xavier University graduation? Who went to Xavier? Who?
Man in background: This is the Fuller house.
Patrick: I understand that, but Xavier…
Man in background: Some of the Fullers had to be sitting with us.
Patrick: Xavier is a Catholic university in Cincinnati
Woman in background: Or in Louisiana
Patrick: True, New Orleans. Well you know St. Francis Xavier moved around (jokingly)
Man in background: Okay let’s focus
Patrick: What?
Woman in background: Haha he said let’s focus. We're rolling.
Interviewer: How would you describe the architecture on the street?
Patrick: I would describe it as…
Man: Say “the architecture is…”
Patrick: I would describe the architecture …
Man: Take 3
Patrick: I would describe the architecture on Greenbelt Knoll as simple modern. It’s not excruciatingly modern but it’s clear and visible. We have 4 bedrooms 2 toilets… it’s really simple but good.
Man: Okay that was great but don’t say, “I would describe.” Say “The architecture is clean modern...”
Patrick: The architecture is…
Man: Wait until they’re ready
Patrick: I like the way I’m given my answers here
Man: They’re good
Patrick: Your answers
Man: I’m not... you heard us you heard Tina say, don’t say I would. Rephrase the answers it makes an editable sentence.
Patrick: Okay.
Man: The question is about architecture.
Patrick: Louis Kahn was an extraordinary man.
Stop/Cut
Interviewer: How would you describe the architecture on the street?
Patrick: I would describe the architecture on the street as simple modern it isn’t trying to be a fancy Frank Gehry bit of hoofah its just a straight residence straight lines clear pattern
Interviewer: How about inside the houses?
Patrick: Well it works beautifully. It’s just not fancy. It’s a rectangular solution to the problems of livings. Very nice.
Interviewer: How did you discover this neighborhood?
Patrick: Well we were out in Thorny Apple Lane in Levittown and my wife was getting more and more frustrated by the emptiness of the neighborhood and so we found out first that there was a place called Concord Park and that was just a black Levittown. We wanted to be in a place that had some distinction and we heard about his place. Incidentally Number 8 Longford Street was then inhabited by a high school a school principal and his wife who didn’t feel comfortable in an integrated settlement. Which is to say if there hadn’t been one white family that didn’t fit in here we never would have gotten in. So you see even evil has its good side.
(Some background conversation)
Patrick: I can’t hear you. What’s happening?
Man: …you didn’t like southern colonial style
Patrick: It’s a good point. I always thought there was a little racial anxiety there. It seems to me that if you like southern plantation architecture you’re a covert racist. I’m teasing. Hey, can we have any humor in this thing for God's sake?
Man: You were saying something about Louis Kahn earlier…
Patrick: Yeah he came from Estonia at age four had a very tough life, went to the University of Pennsylvania but it wasn’t until he was in his 50s and 60s that he had any decent commissions like Bangladesh parliament you know he wasn’t given much support in America although he has many fine buildings the Salk Center in La Hoya, the Kimball Museum in Fort Worth, Texas, the Philips Exeter Academy, but it was late in his life. And he also had a thing about ladies and he was always juggling several relationships and the reason that he did this under the table as to say it was unofficial is because it was supporting his love life and they didn’t want everybody to know that he had to do double time just to keep juggling his friends.
Man: The question is to be directed to Longford Street, so how is Louis Kahn and what do you know about the architects that did the buildings here. We’re trying to get a little bit about the architecture.
Patrick: Sure. Well Montgomery and Bishop were not distinguished architects but this place won an AIA award for citing in 1957. I mean the use of the trees without these trees Longford would just be another street and it was the savvy of Montgomery and Bishop and Morris Milgram to get a variance from the Pennypark woods so that they could build here. And if we didn’t have that damn railroad we never would have gotten that it was because it was kind of left over from the rail road but you gotta… Morris Milgram was a very canny man he knew politics, he knew city hall and we owe as much to him for his canniness in getting these trees as to getting architecture by Louis Kahn.
Man: That’s great.
Pause/silence
Patrick: It’s the funniest damn movie I ever heard of.
(Puts hands over eyes, looks around, seems confused)
Patrick: There’s a World Series game tonight.
Everyone laughs.
Woman: If it’s not rained out.
Patrick: Am I excused? Unless you have some dirty questions you’d like to ask me.
Woman: Do you have some dirty things you’d like to tell us?
Patrick: No, but I like to think about them. (Laughter)